"Start Error" issue. Fix with pre-programmed ECU, WSP??
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mike@...
My 2006 VIew started having this "start error" problem recently. It was intermittent at first, but rapidly progressed to it basically not starting at all. I have removed the battery disconnect I use to save the battery over the winter and that worked for exactly 1 start. I have cleaned all connections, grounds to the frame, engine, and firewall. I have tried our backup key fob. I have inspected and tested the starter relay. I think I am forced to conclude it is in the ECU and/or WSP modules. The closest MB dealer is 70 miles away, and I know that will be $$$$. I found a company online called Precision ECU in Illinois. You send in your ECU, WSP, and keys and they send back a rebuilt system for $435 with all the components pre-programmed together. Although I have watch a number of Youtubes on this problem, I see some people just swapping out an ECU and WSP and no mention of programming them, yet others have their laptop out and programming software to synch the components. If I can get my local diesel mechanic to take it on, I think $435 for the parts is not a bad deal. Has anyone had experience with this?
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Glenn Franco
Mike Before condemning the ECU have you checked the following? I assume you have a Volt Ohm Meter and know how to use it. - Is the battery at ~12.6v - do you have battery voltage at the starter solenoid (battery terminal) - did you check the relay under the seat or the actual starter solenoid - if you have battery voltage at the battery terminal on the starter solenoid, did you try jumping from the battery terminal to the S or start terminal, Key does not have to be on for this. - the starter solenoids on these Bosch starters are prone to failure. Bosch must have subcontracted the work to Lucas (prince of darkness) the way these things fail - have you used a scan tool to clear codes or see if there are any saved codes. - Also there is a relay at the bottom of the fuse block under the steering column that can cause a no start as well Good luck and I would avoid the tow and ECU until all else has been checked. Ask me how I know Glenn 06 NV 23H Plagued with electrical issues at less than 50K miles Retired Automotive Engineer and ASE Master Mechanic Glenn On Sat, Feb 25, 2023 at 10:08 AM <mike@...> wrote: My 2006 VIew started having this "start error" problem recently. It was intermittent at first, but rapidly progressed to it basically not starting at all. I have removed the battery disconnect I use to save the battery over the winter and that worked for exactly 1 start. I have cleaned all connections, grounds to the frame, engine, and firewall. I have tried our backup key fob. I have inspected and tested the starter relay. I think I am forced to conclude it is in the ECU and/or WSP modules. The closest MB dealer is 70 miles away, and I know that will be $$$$. I found a company online called Precision ECU in Illinois. You send in your ECU, WSP, and keys and they send back a rebuilt system for $435 with all the components pre-programmed together. Although I have watch a number of Youtubes on this problem, I see some people just swapping out an ECU and WSP and no mention of programming them, yet others have their laptop out and programming software to synch the components. If I can get my local diesel mechanic to take it on, I think $435 for the parts is not a bad deal. Has anyone had experience with this? |
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Frank Kimble
Well you really have not told us anything. Lots of reasons for not starting. Battery weak, starter going bad, ECU, etc, etc.
Exactly what is it doing? Complete with sounds, clicking, humming, burring!
I have a problem that exactly meets your very limited description. It ain’t always the worst case. Sometimes it only a nickel problem.
Waiting for more info’
Frank 07J
From: discussion@view-navion.groups.io [mailto:discussion@view-navion.groups.io] On Behalf Of mike@...
My 2006 VIew started having this "start error" problem recently. It was intermittent at first, but rapidly progressed to it basically not starting at all. I have removed the battery disconnect I use to save the battery over the winter and that worked for exactly 1 start. I have cleaned all connections, grounds to the frame, engine, and firewall. I have tried our backup key fob. I have inspected and tested the starter relay. I think I am forced to conclude it is in the ECU and/or WSP modules. The closest MB dealer is 70 miles away, and I know that will be $$$$. I found a company online called Precision ECU in Illinois. You send in your ECU, WSP, and keys and they send back a rebuilt system for $435 with all the components pre-programmed together. Although I have watch a number of Youtubes on this problem, I see some people just swapping out an ECU and WSP and no mention of programming them, yet others have their laptop out and programming software to synch the components. If I can get my local diesel mechanic to take it on, I think $435 for the parts is not a bad deal. Has anyone had experience with this? |
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Harold Fitzgerald
Mike
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I had a similar problem a few years ago, but my local mechanic said it was the starter relay. He replaced the whole starter and that fixed it. It got a little intermittent again last month. I checked the battery in the fob and it needed replacement. Been working fine ever since. Marty 2008 Navion 24H 135,000 miles On Feb 25, 2023, at 9:09 AM, mike@... wrote:
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Frank Kimble
My problem was same fix as Harolds. Started as very intermittent an got more frequent. Pulled starter and tested OK. Went thru everything and got back to the starter. Pulled it a second time and after multiple testing’s, finally got it to fail. Went to NAPA, ordered a rebuilt starter. Installed worked til I sold it yesterday. Still cranked like a small block Chevy, one bump of the key after sitting for several months. Oh, failure was over 10 years ago.
Frank
From: discussion@view-navion.groups.io [mailto:discussion@view-navion.groups.io] On Behalf Of Harold Fitzgerald
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2023 11:11 AM To: discussion@view-navion.groups.io Subject: Re: [view-navion] "Start Error" issue. Fix with pre-programmed ECU, WSP??
Mike I had a similar problem a few years ago, but my local mechanic said it was the starter relay. He replaced the whole starter and that fixed it. It got a little intermittent again last month. I checked the battery in the fob and it needed replacement. Been working fine ever since. Marty 2008 Navion 24H 135,000 miles On Feb 25, 2023, at 9:09 AM, mike@... wrote:
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mike@...
Thanks for taking time to respond,
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Yes, I checked the battery with a multimeter and a load tester. It is fairly new and corrosion free battery/terminal. Yes, I checked the key fob. There is no noise clicking, etc. total silence. The dash lights up and then the Start Error comes up. This View also has less than 50K miles. Yes, I checked the starter relay under the seat. Took it out disassembled and checked with meter, it was fine too. Glenn, hilarious joke about Lucas. We have joked about Lucas all my life. My brother had an MG Magnette, and a friend with an old Land Rover crashed when his lights failed on a mountain road. He’s fine. I have not checked the starter solenoid. I have been a DIYer all my life and have been avoiding diving in, especially after seeing the difficult access to the starter motor. I may just have to do that though. I have an appointment at the dealer on Wednesday but now that I can’t start it at all, I am more inclined to dive in. My diesel guy already has said he has no way of doing the programming if I have to do the ECM and WSP modules. I think I will roll up my sleeves and try jumping the starter. Its about 12 degrees F out there right now and I thought I have “aged out" of working on vehicles in that kind of weather. At least it is under a covered area. I am interested in getting a scan tool. I put an Autel AP200 in my wish list, it works with a phone app. It seems that I should own some kind of scan tool. I have a Mac computer so unless I use a phone app, I have to stick with that compatibility. Thanks again, Mike
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Harold Fitzgerald
Mike, I was told that the solenoid was not worth replacing by itself. So they replaced the whole starter-solenoid. They did the job for less than 500.
Marty 2008 Navion 24H 135,000
From: discussion@view-navion.groups.io [mailto:discussion@view-navion.groups.io] On Behalf Of Michael Banks
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2023 11:12 AM To: discussion@view-navion.groups.io Subject: Re: [view-navion] "Start Error" issue. Fix with pre-programmed ECU, WSP??
Thanks for taking time to respond,
Yes, I checked the battery with a multimeter and a load tester. It is fairly new and corrosion free battery/terminal. Yes, I checked the key fob. There is no noise clicking, etc. total silence. The dash lights up and then the Start Error comes up. This View also has less than 50K miles. Yes, I checked the starter relay under the seat. Took it out disassembled and checked with meter, it was fine too.
Glenn, hilarious joke about Lucas. We have joked about Lucas all my life. My brother had an MG Magnette, and a friend with an old Land Rover crashed when his lights failed on a mountain road. He’s fine.
I have not checked the starter solenoid. I have been a DIYer all my life and have been avoiding diving in, especially after seeing the difficult access to the starter motor. I may just have to do that though. I have an appointment at the dealer on Wednesday but now that I can’t start it at all, I am more inclined to dive in. My diesel guy already has said he has no way of doing the programming if I have to do the ECM and WSP modules.
I think I will roll up my sleeves and try jumping the starter. Its about 12 degrees F out there right now and I thought I have “aged out" of working on vehicles in that kind of weather. At least it is under a covered area.
I am interested in getting a scan tool. I put an Autel AP200 in my wish list, it works with a phone app. It seems that I should own some kind of scan tool. I have a Mac computer so unless I use a phone app, I have to stick with that compatibility.
Thanks again,
Mike
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You asked hopefully also on sprinter-source.com in the "T1N Talk" category. At least give them a run before spending any $.
https://sprinter-source.com/forums/index.php?threads/17800/page-4 -- Don - 2006 Navion - J |
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Glenn Franco
Mike Wait for a warmer day and crawl underneath your rig and try jumping between the solenoid battery terminal and the S or Start Terminal. In my case I could not find a replacement solenoid so I purchased a new Bosch Starter. Since then I located a source on ebay and this replacement works fine. I called Bosch directly and they couldn't give me a part number for a Bosch replacement solenoid so this was the next best option. I have posted on this site photos of the solenoid that failed in less than 35K miles. I cut it apart on my lathe and the terminals were burnt/poor design! The reason I remarked about Lucas is that I restore British Sports Cars and have had to rebuild wiring harnesses and such on Triumphs and Mg's. OBTW I just completed 2 German 1973 BMW 2002's and that wiring was not much better. Here is the replacement:  I'ts super easy to replace but you need to pull the starter. I used a set of homemade ramps as this thing will not fit on my Hoist. Good Luck Glenn On Sat, Feb 25, 2023 at 1:50 PM Don Phillipe <donphillipe@...> wrote: You asked hopefully also on sprinter-source.com in the "T1N Talk" category. At least give them a run before spending any $. |
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Michael Banks <mike@...>
I did several things to my Sprinter today including re-located the accessory cables to above the lug on the battery ground cable, took the key fobs indoors to warm them up, ran a heater under the dash, took the Skreem fuse out and put it back in, and kept the battery topped off. So it has started about 4 times without fail now. Going to let it get cold tonight and see if it still starts without Start Error light tomorrow. I will make the decision on taking it to the dealer after I see how things go the next few days.
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Thanks to everyone who responded, Mike
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Frank Kimble
When I had the starter issue, I would get a click, solenoid engaging but no turn over of the motor. On the ground with jumper cables it seemed to be fine, but finally acted up. Hardest part was the little solenoid wired. Biggest problem was my body flexibility, I could see the starter bolts OR I could get my hand on them. No “starter error” displayed. Just a click. No sensors on the starter motor to detest rotation. Sounds like you “may” have a different problem. Any trans fluid wicking up the wiring to the relay area under the driver’s seat? From the connector on passenger side front of trans fluid pan”
Frank
From: discussion@view-navion.groups.io [mailto:discussion@view-navion.groups.io] On Behalf Of Michael Banks
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2023 12:12 PM To: discussion@view-navion.groups.io Subject: Re: [view-navion] "Start Error" issue. Fix with pre-programmed ECU, WSP??
Thanks for taking time to respond,
Yes, I checked the battery with a multimeter and a load tester. It is fairly new and corrosion free battery/terminal. Yes, I checked the key fob. There is no noise clicking, etc. total silence. The dash lights up and then the Start Error comes up. This View also has less than 50K miles. Yes, I checked the starter relay under the seat. Took it out disassembled and checked with meter, it was fine too.
Glenn, hilarious joke about Lucas. We have joked about Lucas all my life. My brother had an MG Magnette, and a friend with an old Land Rover crashed when his lights failed on a mountain road. He’s fine.
I have not checked the starter solenoid. I have been a DIYer all my life and have been avoiding diving in, especially after seeing the difficult access to the starter motor. I may just have to do that though. I have an appointment at the dealer on Wednesday but now that I can’t start it at all, I am more inclined to dive in. My diesel guy already has said he has no way of doing the programming if I have to do the ECM and WSP modules.
I think I will roll up my sleeves and try jumping the starter. Its about 12 degrees F out there right now and I thought I have “aged out" of working on vehicles in that kind of weather. At least it is under a covered area.
I am interested in getting a scan tool. I put an Autel AP200 in my wish list, it works with a phone app. It seems that I should own some kind of scan tool. I have a Mac computer so unless I use a phone app, I have to stick with that compatibility.
Thanks again,
Mike
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Leonard R Casella
Search "start" in files. There is an excellent file compiling troubleshooting steps and common issues. Maybe the third page of listings? With a T1N Sprinter, there are some unique issues. The fuse block poor contact was the cause of one recent member's issue on another group.
This is one of the no start listings: Under steering column fuses & relays. Blown fuse, a cracked fuse block, or loose relay and/or fuse connections. Try lightly wrapping on the fuse panel with the heel of your hand while the key is in the start position. (Possibly fuse #16 on the 5 cly chassis or #23 or #8 on the 6 cly ), should be a 20 amp (25 amp?) fuse for the ECM which may mistakenly be a 10amp fuse, could be blown or loose. There are also 3 small plug in style box relays at the bottom of the fuse block. From left to right they are labeled W, M, and B. Wipers, Motor, and Blinkers. Try swapping the M and B relays, the middle and far right. Apparently, the M relay, which gets activated by the ignition key being in the on position, gets corroded terminals or a weak coil. -- Len 12J Krumsville, PA |
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Gary Oakes
I had a no start issue on my late last year that had an odd additional symptom- the dash lit up and the auxiliary cooling fan came on full blast- no crank however.
Did a lot of checking and finally got to the point where I’d eliminated everything but the ECU and SKREEM module. Did a bunch of research and finally decided on a company in Oregon ( one that someone on the Sprinter Forum had used) SOS Diagnostics. I shipped the ECU, SKREEM and a key to them, they diagnosed, repaired and sent them back w/in 10 days. Solved issue. Gary |
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Glenn Franco
I also had the same issue 2 years ago on our trip from Michigan to Washington State. On the way back we broke down numerous times, first checking in at Yellowstone and then a couple times in Wyoming and finally in Rapid City. Turns out it was the same fuse block under the steering column. I had replaced it prior to the trip with a new one purchased at Gainesville Mercedes. It was defective as that lower relay was failing/disconnecting intermittently. The Frieghtliner dealer in Rapid City replaced it under warranty (since it was purchased new a few months ago) but we still had to pay for labor. Same conditions as with Garys description. No Start and the cooling fan would go on full blast. Now I keep my original fuse block and a spare starter on hand in the vehicle. Glenn 06 23H On Sun, Feb 26, 2023 at 10:13 AM Gary Oakes <gs941vette@...> wrote: I had a no start issue on my late last year that had an odd additional symptom- the dash lit up and the auxiliary cooling fan came on full blast- no crank however. |
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Helpers here, do take note that the problem being described is that the error "start error" is showing and not that the motor simply won't turn over or start,..
-- Don - 2006 Navion - J |
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Glenn Franco
Thats the exact condition I had multiple times on the way back from Washington NO Start / Cooling Fan on full blast Glenn On Sun, Feb 26, 2023 at 12:09 PM Don Phillipe <donphillipe@...> wrote: Helpers here, do take note that the problem being described is that the error "start error" is showing and not that the motor simply won't turn over or start,.. |
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Michael Banks <mike@...>
You sound like me. I am accumulating an ever increasing list of Sprinter parts we haul all around with us. I am finally ordering one of those aluminum turbo resonator/silencer things to replace the plastic one that has fouled us up on two trips now.
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Thanks, Mike
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Gary Oakes
The fuse block can be a culprit as what triggers the Aux fan to go on full blast is the ECU failing to get current from fuse 16 or 17, if I recall. That makes the ECU think it has a potential engine temperature fault so it failsafes to maximum cooling. While troubleshooting mine, I thought I had a fuse block fault ( although I replaced the fuse block a number of years back) but after rechecking my methodology, I realized that I had not reconnected the ECU which then lead to
erroneous voltage at the fuse block. Anyhow, finally came down to ECU/SKREEM was the only remaining culprit ( with no way to test )- so I took the plunge and shipped it off for diagnoses. Just as a side, the DTC for this issue came up as a CanBus failure with no other stored codes- pretty useless as a troubleshooting aid. That was with both a Sprinter specific diagnostic module on my Launch diagnostic tool as well as my iCarsoft tool. When making the decision on ECU replacement/reflash take a good , hard look at the customer comments-more than a few of the places do not have positive commentary ( even when taken with a large grain of salt). Hop you get it resolved Gary ‘06 ViewJ Wa |
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Michael Banks <mike@...>
I took it to the place that sold me the battery in June of ’21 and their fancy Snapon battery tester said it was bad. I fastidiously disconnect it when not in use over the winter because the house tends to trickle it. I use one of those knob disconnects that has worked well over about the last 6 years. They replaced it no charge. Apparently my cheap battery load tester somehow showed me it was okay. I think I got it fixed!
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Thanks to all who participated in the View-Navion group. MB
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